SPEAKER_00 0:00

I'm Alejandra Roosty, and this is the Roosy Hive. Conversations with people who treat their work and life as a creative practice. Today, for the final interview of season one, I sit down with Susie Bucky and Chloe Kohlhas for a fun, lighthearted reality check on gallery life and the invisible choreography that folds art, artists, clients, exhibitions, and front desk triage into a seamless dance. Expect hot takes, unofficial duties, and art world illusions gently punctured. This podcast is presented by Rico Moresca.

SPEAKER_03 0:38

Woo! That was a good one. That was really good. It was really good.

SPEAKER_00 0:43

Thank you for joining me, my fellow gallerinas, and welcome to the Rusi Hype podcast. You are finally on this side of the door. How does it feel? Feels good. Yeah. Nervous. I'm so happy that you both agreed to sit down with me today. So cheers. Welcome. Normally for the podcast, I do the hive card. It's just one card that I write for every guest, and it changes from interview to interview. But because there are three of us here today, I thought I would mix it up literally. So that's what we'll do. Each of us will pull out a card and read it out loud, and we will all guess who it's about. But there won't be much guessing involved. You know, it'll be pretty obvious. So who wants to start?

SPEAKER_03 1:41

I'll start.

SPEAKER_00 1:48

I hope you can understand my handwriting.

SPEAKER_03 1:52

Okay. If she were an attorney, she would win your case. Loves words. Art directs every situation, dog magnet.

SPEAKER_00 2:06

Okay, very, very clear to me. That was interesting cadence, Susan. Sorry guys.

SPEAKER_04 2:15

I think that might be our host. It might be me.

SPEAKER_00 2:19

Yeah, great. So we'll take the next one.

SPEAKER_04 2:27

If the gallery were on fire, she would put it out across fit style, finish her to-do list, and ask if anyone needed water. Stiller sparkling. That would be me.

SPEAKER_00 2:41

Okay. I like that we all got each other. Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 2:47

Instead of getting ourselves.

SPEAKER_00 2:49

Exactly. Quietly fills every margin with doodles, have notes, half daydreams, shoots analogue, youngest in the room, slowest to text back. And that would be you. Clown. So now let's actually introduce ourselves for our audience for with a few basic questions, answers. So I will read them and then you will take it from there. So your full name, how long you've been with the gallery, your official job title, and what it actually means in practice, your pre-gallery era, your off-duty self, and how creativity shows up in your personal life. So I'll hand you the card and just go straight to the answers.

SPEAKER_03 3:33

Great. My name is Susie Bucky, soon to be Susie Frost, uh, due to marriage. Um I've been at the gallery. That happens. I'm sorry. It's okay. I'll, you know, I'll make it work, I guess. Yeah, thank you. Um, I've been at the gallery for three years almost, actually, which I was thinking about this morning. Really? Yeah, I know. Crazy. And I am the gallery manager, which in practice kind of means that I facilitate all of the logistics that we need to do. So figuring out all the forms that we do, applying to art fairs, figuring out billing and disbursement, kind of a lot of like logistics and like nitty-gritty detail things. My pre-gallery era, I was a bartender for 10 years. So going to a gallery was a bit of a 180. But I'm very glad that I made the switch from daytime to or from nighttime to daytime. It's much better to be asleep at night. My off-duty self, I love, as Chloe wonderfully mentioned, love CrossFit and love to kind of like be physical, work out, be outside, go to the beach, kind of anything that gets me up, out, and moving. How creativity shows up in my personal life, this is a tricky one. Um, I feel like creativity dictates how I go about living my life, from the jobs I hold, gallery, bartender, whatever it might be, to kind of what I want my space to look like, what my home looks like, and kind of how I choose to spend my spare time. So a lot of kind of making things for loved ones and visiting museums and kind of staying on top of what's happening in kind of the world of art in general.

SPEAKER_04 5:36

Okay. Um, so I'm Chloe Kohlhaas. I've been at the gallery going on two years, which is also very crazy. I am the gallery assistant here, which can mean very many things, sort of depending on the day. Um, I mean, every day I'm at the front desk, so I'm answering questions, giving a lot of people the bathroom code, um that sort of thing, but also, you know, preparing for openings, printing out like the checklists that go at the front desk, sometimes reaching out to press contacts, that sort of thing. And my pre-gallery era, um I went to NYU before this, and this is my first job out of college. So I've been in New York going on for six years. Yeah. And this is kind of exactly what I wanted to do. I studied, I designed my major in college, like narrative and social change, kind of like exploring narrative in gallery spaces and museum spaces. So this fits perfectly into that. Yeah. And then my off-duty self, um, I love just exploring the city. I'm a bit of a foodie, um, going to exhibitions, that sort of thing, hanging out with friends. I definitely have a creative practice. I do a lot of photography, as was also mentioned by Ali. Um and I paint sometimes, I write, um, and also very similar to what Susie said. I feel like creativity dictates a lot of how I go about my life.

SPEAKER_00 7:12

Okay, thank you. All right, my full name. I'm Alejandra Rusi. Nice to meet you. Okay.

SPEAKER_03 7:21

For the first time ever.

SPEAKER_00 7:22

Yeah, incredible. I've been with a gallery since 2019. Uh, that's a long time. My title is Media Director, and what that basically means is that I am in charge of the way the gallery communicates with the world. That includes online viewing rooms, both for our physical exhibitions and online exhibitions, which I started in their current form, as well as email blasts, social media, editorial content. I also supervise exhibition catalogs when we publish them and um just do a lot of writing or editing, and I help plan client and press outreach and email you both a lot as well. Who I was before the gallery, my pre-gallery era. So I was born in Bogota, Colombia. I studied literature for my undergrad, and I played classical piano for many years, and I have two master's degrees focusing on arts and culture journalism from Columbia University here. Before the gallery, I was a freelance writer, and I also collaborated with my mom on one of the restaurants that she owns back home, which was a lot of fun. Off duty. So honestly, right now, this podcast has taken over my entire life. Yeah. Outside the gallery. But normally you I mean, normally I would be reading a lot. I love fiction, nonfiction. Um, also writing a lot. I also love, I love fashion, restaurants, I love the performing arts, which is great because I live in New York City, where you know it's always kind of there's something new. And I love this city so much. Like, I still, every time I leave the house, I can't believe that I live here. Like for me, it's been a journey and I don't take that for granted. And how creativity shows up in my personal life. I guess similarly to both of you, the answer is a little more abstract. I would say creativity is a through line in everything I do. If I'm not trying to constantly figure out how to put an idea into something that's readable, viewable, into something that has a shape in the world, I'm not very happy. So usually it starts with, okay, I have a feeling, I have an intuition, I have this like vague concept. And then the question becomes, what's the right form for that? That could be an outfit, it could be a magazine article, it could be a recipe, it could be a podcast, it could be anything. The form can change, but the impulse stays the same. So thank you both for your backstories. And let's get into it. I think people imagine that working in a gallery is a very chic and very calm activity, and that we spend our days talking about art in a white cube, um, and that it's all openings and um studio visits, but the reality is a lot less glamorous and a lot more complicated, as we all know. So before you worked in a gallery, what did you think it would be like? And what was the first thing that shattered that fantasy?

SPEAKER_03 10:41

To borrow our lovely bookkeeper's favorite word, I thought it was going to be very snooty. Um, I actually, when I, because I started as an intern when I first got the internship, I went out with my now husband, then boyfriend, and he helped me choose some outfits that we thought would be appropriate, which consisted of, you know, like some button-downs and like skirts, which is something that I don't think either of you have ever seen me wear ever, because I never would.

SPEAKER_00 11:16

So I So you did not wear that outfit.

SPEAKER_03 11:19

No, no, kind of as soon as I got here, I figured out that I could wear what I wanted and to feel like myself and that that would be totally fine. But I definitely thought it was going to be like a very buttoned up, very like snooty experience, which it is not at all.

SPEAKER_04 11:36

Yeah, totally. I feel like in my head, I was just constantly imagining the openings and like nothing else. Like it was just like blank space and then opening. Like we're just always gonna be in nice little cocktail dresses and like have wine and talk about art. And in reality, that happens like every five weeks, and then there's a lot of stuff in between. That's what shattered it.

SPEAKER_00 12:00

I think I assumed, coming from journalism, that it would be more like ideas forward. I imagined it would be mostly about interpretation, like writing context, meaning, but what I didn't fully grasp was that whole ecosystem around that. So it wasn't until I started working in an art gallery that I saw how cultural value, uh, money, timing, relationships, trust are all kind of intertwined. And so much of the real work lives in like tone, restraint, knowing when and when not to speak. It's like the secret code that all of us learn, but we didn't know how we learned it. We don't realize like how it happened, you know? And realizing that I think slowly shattered my very one-dimensional idea that I had of the art world. So, what's the funniest or most unhinged assumption that people have made about your job?

SPEAKER_03 12:57

People think that it's kind of just very highbrow and creative all the time, kind of like what we've just been discussing. But they think that, you know, we only associate with like the rich and famous, and that's not the case at all. Every day.

SPEAKER_00 13:14

Of course, every day. Every day it's a new celebrity through the door. We know everyone, of course. Of course, which is that saying, yeah. Okay, Chloe.

SPEAKER_04 13:26

Yeah. Um, I don't know if this ever happens to you, but I've had a few friends that have come in, and maybe it's just not like sadly, I think a lot of people don't respect or understand arts careers as much. And I think they don't understand what goes into like really establishing a gallery and making curatorial decisions. But I've had people come in and be like, oh, so like, did you like organize all of this? Like, did you put all these up? Did you call me into that? And I was like, no, I'm not quite there yet, guys. But that's so interesting. Yeah, it's crazy. It's and it's always people in like tech or something like that.

SPEAKER_03 14:01

Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 14:02

Uh huh. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 14:03

I feel like these are the same kinds of people that walk in and they just look at something, especially in kind of the kind of art, the outsider art that we show a lot here, and they're like, but but I could do it. Yeah, why I could do it. Yeah. And I'm like, but you did it.

SPEAKER_00 14:19

You did not. Yeah. One of the funniest assumptions is probably that people think that the gallery is kind of a static place, kind of similar to what you just said, that the art goes on the wall and then we just kind of sit around and wait for something to happen. You know, that's really weird. Like people assuming that the gallery is kind of a dormant, kind of self-sustaining entity, and then there's no no engine behind it. And when in reality, a gallery is more like a clockwork machine. There are so many moving parts behind the scenes all working together. And that's what makes an exhibition actually come alive. From tiny things like checklists and emails to like the constant back and forth that it takes to make a sale, you know, invoicing, packing, all that stuff. Um, when it works, it's effortless. But that's because of this whole choreography behind it that people don't see. So, what's the strangest thing you've had to do here that would never make it into the job description? Be honest now. That would never make it into the job description.

SPEAKER_03 15:26

I mean, one of the things that I love about my particular job is that I get to help our art handler, June, kind of lift things and do things that he he would either have to like figure out on his own or like get the doorman to help with.

SPEAKER_00 15:40

I feel like you're the first person who's worked here fulfilling that role, like who's actually like taken to that. Yeah. And I think June is very happy about that.

SPEAKER_03 15:50

That makes me really happy because it is one of my favorite parts of this job, is just getting to like really like bro out with June and like talk deer hunting and like scrape vinyl off of walls.

SPEAKER_00 16:04

Wow. I never knew that. That's great. I love that.

SPEAKER_03 16:07

I love that. Definitely didn't make it into the job description. I feel like it's something that I put into my job though, which is slightly different from your question. Yeah, yeah. But I'm very happy that it, I'm very happy it's in there.

SPEAKER_04 16:18

Yeah. I feel like the funniest thing, a lot of times it's like gifts. Yeah. Because I don't think another thing people don't realize about galleries is how much of it is social and like maintaining this social network with your clients and friends and that sort of thing. Like just the other day, I was looking at dog sweaters for Bibi, the dog who um is owned by a person in a gallery on our floor. And, you know, we had to find the best dog sweater for Bibi. It's like very important. Of course. It's very important.

SPEAKER_00 16:51

You can't get the wrong sweater, that would be bad. That's fun. I love doing that. There's a lot of that in the map, yeah. Yeah. I actually had to think about this one, even though I formulated the question, because I feel like my threshold for strange has gotten pretty flexible over the years. But honestly, I think it was probably the Halloween reel that we did recently.

SPEAKER_03 17:14

Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 17:14

How it all kind of pulled together so quickly, and it was bizarre and kind of the best way. And I realized that I really enjoyed becoming an art director in that moment and the whole kind of improvising and the performance aspect of it, which was, you know, I enjoyed that a little too much, which it gave me a little of information about myself, actually. So that part I don't think would make it into the job description, but really, if it were up to me, right now we'd all be preparing our elf costumes to do a like a holiday reel.

SPEAKER_04 17:50

Yeah. That'd be amazing.

SPEAKER_00 17:51

Honestly, if you're like soft launching that idea, I'm so can one or both of you give the audience the spark notes and what the Halloween reel was about? Oh boy.

SPEAKER_04 18:01

Um, so we had a show um of a new artist, Sarah Lee, um, who makes very like spooky and oftentimes like grotesque art. And so we thought it would be appropriate to like dress up as some of the characters in her paintings and do a real. I don't know if you want to add some details.

SPEAKER_03 18:23

I mean, this was for Halloween to launch, like on Halloween. Yes. Um, and we all dressed up, and I think we did an amazing job getting like very similar to the actual painting.

SPEAKER_00 18:33

Less than a week, yeah. To get this in addition to like our jobs and what we had to do.

SPEAKER_03 18:38

I think we all like Chloe painted a mask, I painted a mask. Like we all kind of like pulled things together. You like edited a bunch of outfits, yeah, so that it looked way more similar than it like did originally. That was insane.

SPEAKER_00 18:52

Yeah, I loved it. Yeah, it was great. I actually have, I don't think either one of you know, but I have a I had a sneaky camera way on the side. What? The main camera that nobody realized. There was this phone shooting the whole thing from another angle. Oh, that's amazing. And there's this really, I mean, there's so many great shots because nobody knew it was there. So there's one with you where you're like you're wearing this crazy wig. Yes, with this crazy mask, and you're in profile, like right there. Looking at like it looks so scary. But it's great, it's great. Yeah, maybe I'll cut that into this episode. That would be fun.

SPEAKER_02 19:35

But yeah, for sure.

SPEAKER_00 19:36

So what I think we can only go downhill from there, but so what's great. Let's just end it, end it there, just cut it now. So, what's an emotional aspect about this job that nobody on the outside would ever guess, or that you would have would not have guessed before you started?

SPEAKER_03 19:58

Becoming really invested in the success of an artist's show. Like we just did, as you mentioned, Sarah Lee show. It's her first show with us, it's her first show show since we like took her entire price structure and completely rearranged all of it. And I was so invested in that succeeding. For her to have this like success, yeah, and to be like, oh, I am worth this. I can do this. Right. And totally. And for us to be able to be like, we can help you do this. And and we did, it was a success. I mean, the show did really well. People still write in a lot asking for, you know, prices on her work and wanting to buy her work. And that's definitely something that surprised me that like getting so invested in that success.

SPEAKER_04 20:49

Totally. I found myself getting like attached to specific artworks and then like being really invested in where they end up a lot of the time too. Like sometimes it's funny when I'm really like attached to something and I find out it was sold while I was gone. I'm like, but who did it go to? Like, where how do I not know this? Yeah. It feels like like fostering a dog and then wanting to know the owner, I guess.

SPEAKER_00 21:15

I get that. Yeah. Yeah. For me, it's the responsibility of telling the story of the artist or of the work. I feel emotional weight in that, and I really do think of every single word that I write. It's about kind of holding intellectual rigor while also making the work accessible. And I feel that balance is pretty hard to achieve, which is so important to how we are, who we are as a gallery, but we'll we'll get into that. All right, so let's close this section with front desk duty. So people in the art world say I survived the front desk for a reason. It really is kind of a rite of passage. When I started working in the gallery, I set out the Front desk for about a year and a half. And it was like trying to write a novel in the middle of Grand Central. Like even though I wasn't there alone, I was with somebody else. But it was like constant interruptions and you're juggling so many things, you're answering the phone, shifting priorities, and you're pretending that everything is normal and you're great and you're here and you look cute and you just you're just you're ready, right? So what has the front desk taught you, Chloe? In your case, that's all you've known.

SPEAKER_04 22:33

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 22:33

So um I'm gonna start with you.

SPEAKER_04 22:35

Definitely the interruptions are crazy when you have something to do. Um, and a lot of times, I mean, usually I'm kind of happy if someone wants to like have a conversation about the art with me. I do enjoy that, but you get some people that are just like, I'm not gonna get into specifics. I try not to judge because sometimes I'm just like, why are you telling me this?

SPEAKER_00 22:58

Why? Um, I I hear it sometimes. Like, people are telling you all these things. They're life stories. They're life stories.

SPEAKER_04 23:05

Yeah, like really. I also get a lot of like artist submissions, and I again I'm not the person that makes those decisions. Also, like sometimes it's like, okay, this pencil drawing of Rihanna like isn't gonna make it in the gallery. Like, I don't know. It's really surprising what people bring in.

SPEAKER_00 23:26

And do you try you try to be like nice and non-class?

SPEAKER_04 23:30

Yeah, yeah, for sure. And some things are really interesting. Like, I love a lot of the things I see and the conversations I have, but there's a wide breadth of people that come in.

SPEAKER_03 23:41

Yeah. Coming from a service industry background, I feel like I was very, very well equipped to deal with all of the personalities that get thrown at you. The thing that I learned and wanted to learn really fast is like I've always felt very protective of like you guys in back offices. So I've always felt very like, I need to know, I need to get really smart really fast on people that call in and those that we want to talk to and those that we really don't. Yeah. Um, and so I feel like it it helped me just learn our clients really fast. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 24:20

Yeah. And you've been at if you've been at the front desk long enough, you kind of know what's what, right? But in the beginning, it must be kind of overwhelming. Yeah. Because you're trying to do your job, right? You're trying to like give everyone attention, but clearly there's like some other internal memo that you have to be cued in on. Yeah, yeah. And that you learn that with time. Totally. So the front desk taught me my brief stitch that I hate people. Yeah. No, I'm just kidding. Um I don't hate people, but I it definitely clarified my need for controlled interaction. It also taught me that being nice and being available are two very different things. And finally, it taught me that I need a lot of quiet to do my best work. And the front desk is a great place to learn that about yourself. Yeah. Yeah. Rico Maresca is a bit of an outlier as far as galleries go. We specialize in art that emerges very far from the mainstream, and we definitely operate differently too. The way we present ourselves, the way things run behind the scenes. It's not your typical gallery machine. If someone from a mainstream gallery were a fly on the wall for a week, what do you think would surprise them the most about how things actually work around here? Susie?

SPEAKER_03 25:43

I think that they would be surprised by how it sounds so cheesy, but how much of a family we are and how we kind of like speak to each other. You know, like Frank will often just yell from the office and we'll just kind of yell back. Yeah. Yeah. And it's great. And I think that people would also be surprised that we read everyone, kind of like reads Frank's emails to stay on top of what's going on.

SPEAKER_00 26:08

It's essential actually to read Frank's emails. Oh, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. Where would you be without that inbox? I don't know. Nowhere. I don't know. Misinformation. Yeah. Yeah. Just emailing people the wrong things all the time. Yes. So I think what would surprise them the most is that even though we're all essentially our own little departments, we are all kind of cued in into what's going on in general. Even though something is technically not our responsibility, we all know what's going on. And part of that is because we're we are a very democratic team. And every time we meet, for example, everyone's opinion matters. There isn't much hierarchy or pettiness or competition. And the focus is really on making things work together, and we're not like trying to advance ourselves, we're trying to make the gallery better and the gallery succeed.

SPEAKER_03 27:02

That's definitely also something that surprised me, circling back to like one of your first questions, is the lack of competition within the gallery. Because I thought it was gonna be like a lot more cutthroat than it is. And I come in and Kylie's like, let me show you how to do this, let me teach you how to do this. How are you doing?

SPEAKER_04 27:16

And I'm like, wow, this is nice. Yeah, no, totally. Those are both, yeah, those are both good points. I feel like I guess the only thing I really like learned about mainstream galleries when I was like doing the interview process and stuff like that, um, trying to get into the gallery world was that like a lot of gallery owners are not that involved with their galleries, too. And the fact that Frank is here every day and like we're so involved with him and like his vision of like this gallery he's had going for 30 years.

SPEAKER_00 27:53

Over 40. 44.

SPEAKER_04 27:54

Over 40. Yeah, over 40. Thanks for the crash.

SPEAKER_00 27:58

I know you're young.

SPEAKER_04 28:00

Um, but yeah, that's really crazy because most places I was hearing like, oh yeah, the owner will come in like once a month, or something like that, which is really interesting.

SPEAKER_00 28:11

Or even just art fairs, the you know, the gallery owner will be there for the vernaissage. Yeah. And then, you know, he won't be seen at the booth. Exactly.

SPEAKER_04 28:20

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 28:20

I think that is unique. Okay, so even though kind of connected to that, even though we're a small team, we actually pull off a lot of the polish that's associated with a bigger gallery. What do you think allows that to happen? I think the lack of competition.

SPEAKER_03 28:34

I mean, I think the fact, as you mentioned, that everyone is connected, everyone's like doing each other's jobs. Like, I'm gonna be gone for four days. You guys are gonna know how to like thank you, Susie.

SPEAKER_00 28:45

So yeah, give us giving us more work to do.

SPEAKER_03 28:48

Sorry, but I do think that like the fact that everyone can like in a pinch help each other, and the fact that we do really help each other, and no one's just like out in the ocean, like struggling, yeah, helps us get better together, like more than the sum of its parts.

SPEAKER_04 29:07

Yeah, yeah. I think it also has to do with what I just mentioned of Frank being in the business for 40 years, over 40 years. And I think we maintain this vision of like the classic vision of galleries, which I really like. Like a lot of times you go to an opening these days and it's like a cooler with beers, and you just grab one when you go in. And like that does work for like a lot of these like newer galleries, like younger galleries. But I really like that we still, you know, try to maintain that like older vision of galleries. Like, we always have the glasses of wine at our openings.

SPEAKER_00 29:46

You almost never see that. Yeah, almost never see that.

SPEAKER_04 29:48

It's really rare now.

SPEAKER_00 29:49

Yeah, yeah. I think a lot of that comes, as you both kind of hinted at, from Frank's instinct and creative vision. So I think it really comes from our ability to translate that vision across everything we do. There's this very clear sensibility at the center, and then we all kind of take it in, and then we go do our job. For me personally, this job has really sharpened my visual intelligence and kind of my aesthetic judgment. So, in the beginning, I was a writer. I was like a writer. Uh, I was all about words, all about, you know, narrative. But I think as the years went by, I became more of a storyteller. I think about how things read like visually, emotionally, across platforms. And that's what allows me to produce work that looks, I guess, more polished. And it looks like it was produced by a team, even though we all know it was not, you know. Like the team is a team of me, and that's it. And with a little bit of Chloe's help. But yeah, I think I think the central vision is very essential to that. So working in outsider and self-taught art means that communication is different. Uh, sometimes it's intuitive, sometimes it's unpredictable. And I'm just wondering what this place has taught you about reading people and adapting to different styles.

SPEAKER_03 31:26

I'm thinking about kind of like communicating with artists. Yeah. Right. And I'm thinking about Ken, who is wonderful and definitely like operates outside of the norm. And kind of at first, I I found those discussions difficult when he would call because I I wouldn't know what's the right thing to say. What like I don't know what to do in this situation, but it became very um like wonderful to talk to him because he's just a person who's like dedicated to a really specific thing. So I feel like I've figured out how to communicate in different ways with like our artists and and also how to communicate with the public about why the art is important and the story behind it and the and the people behind the story.

SPEAKER_04 32:19

Yeah. Totally. Yeah. I feel like it's definitely with the artists for sure. Just because you know, outsider art um and self-taught a lot of times is dealing with people that are very outside of like or operate very outside of like art world norms. And so it is interesting to like be in the gallery and like be speaking with a lot of people that are very like art world centered. And then you get on the phone with someone who's just operating on like a different wavelength.

SPEAKER_00 32:50

Who's the actual person creating the art?

SPEAKER_04 32:52

Who's the actual person creating the art? It's kind of nice to like have to like drop into that feeling of okay, I need to like just relate to you as like a human right now, totally outside of this job. Um, but it was definitely an adjustment, yeah, for sure.

SPEAKER_03 33:08

Doing those quick switches between like academic and intuitive. Yes. Is I find really interesting.

SPEAKER_00 33:14

Yeah, very necessary in the in this gallery, I feel. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, with self-taught artists, um, communication is not standardized. You know, it often does not like listening for meaning when it doesn't arrive neatly, it just it's all over the place is a skill to develop. And it's taught me to adapt my own expectations um and to translate without over-professionalizing, to protect the integrity of how someone communicates, not just what they're communicating. And that's the kind of in other words, not just reading people, but um, you're learning how not to overwrite them with your own thing. And that really should hold true for communication for with any artist, I feel. Um, and it goes back to that sense of responsibility that I think I mentioned earlier.

SPEAKER_03 34:08

Yeah, I feel like you have a very big uh responsibility in that. Yeah. Doing all the press releases and all of the kind of writing about the art.

SPEAKER_00 34:17

Yeah, I could just be like, this is what this is about. Like, you know, like forget about this crazy stuff. Whatever. Whatever he's saying. Yeah. Boom. You can't. Yeah, that's that's really like a big responsibility.

SPEAKER_04 34:32

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 34:32

All right. So this is has maybe been answered. I don't know. Uh, what is something you've learned from our artists, either a specific person or all of them collectively, about creativity or about life?

SPEAKER_03 34:47

The big thing I've learned is that the way you view the world is so different from others. I mean, you have Bill Trailer and he saw people walk by and then drew what he saw. If you asked a hundred people, a million people to do the exact same thing and see the exact same dog, every single dog would look different. And I love that it's so personal. And you can see how they view the world. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 35:19

I think kind of on a similar note, like just how intuitive you can really get, like, and how far creativity can go. Like, we see so many artists and work by so many artists that use materials that I would never imagine. Like, even in, you know, you you learn about art and you're like, oh, it's cool, he collaged with like this and this, but we have people that are using like in the James Castle exhibition, like soot from the fireplace. Like it really, you know, that's really opened my eyes to like viewing everything as like a creative material.

SPEAKER_00 35:58

Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. So I want to, with my answer, I want to go back to Ken, who was the reason I'm sitting here today. Yeah. Um, so I wrote one of my master's theses about Ken. And the general idea was to explore the connection between mental illness and creativity. And this was before I even knew there was a category called outsider art. So, for those watching and listening, um, Ken's life project centers on what he believes um is humanity's urgent need to acknowledge um the existence of extraterrestrial life and to make contact with it. Because, in his view, it's the only way we have a future, which is very deep.

SPEAKER_02 36:46

Yep.

SPEAKER_00 36:47

And as you both know, uh that mission shows up here regularly in the form of long phone calls, voice messages, letters, you know, it's constant. What Ken has taught me, and I wrote it down. Number one, creativity has a power to turn what the world might label as limitation into a strength, uh, or at least into meaning. Number two, obsessions aren't always something to cure or suppress. Sometimes they are signals and they are telling you where your deepest creative energy lives. And finally, in a at a time when things are pretty dire for humanity, um, Ken is constantly pulling the lens back and reminding me that there is a bigger picture. Um, and that whether we believe the same things or not, we are all trying to make sense of them together. So, all right, end of this cluster. This is really deep. Yeah, let's go back to practical stuff. What keeps you in the art world right now?

SPEAKER_03 38:00

It's constantly changing. I'm I'm a person who needs a lot of, I need a lot of things to be happening all at the same time for me to thrive. And I need to have my hands in a lot of different pots and be doing a lot of different things all at the same time. And the art world, at least that we are all a part of, is that. I mean, it's we're always doing a lot of stuff, and there's always it's constantly changing, and I've I find that very interesting, and it's something that I seek out in every job.

SPEAKER_04 38:33

And it just keeps me very fulfilled. It's one of those things I feel like I couldn't choose. I just knew I had to be in the art world, and it is, it's just like I guess like the side of living that I like to engage with. Like I like to talk with people that are into art, talk to artists. I just like to work with the art world and like see how politics are evolving in art and like that sort of thing. It's always the lens that I prefer to engage with life in. I think, especially right now, as you said, in such dire times, like it feels kind of like a safe haven, but it's also like crazy in so many ways. I don't know. It just it feels like where I belong, but you know.

SPEAKER_00 39:18

Yeah. I mean, what keeps me here right now is that the gallery lets me put my skills into practice in ways that are genuinely challenging and interesting to me. And thankfully, I have the freedom to like propose and try new things all the time. And I think we all we all do. It's also the cross-section of people that this little Chelsea-centric world makes possible for this podcast. I think of the gallery as a creative collaborator, not just a backdrop, but like an active part of how it all comes together. So let's do a little hot take segment to finish things out. Quick answers, no overthinking. Reactions only, are we ready? Oh my god. Yes. Of course. Okay. Most overrated part of the gallery work. Sales tax.

SPEAKER_04 40:18

Okay. That's better. Um, celebrity. That's a better answer.

SPEAKER_00 40:26

Client dinners are overrated as um a night out, underrated as, you know, labor, unless, of course, uh clients are friends. Okay. Um, most underrated part of gallery work, vinyl. Huh. You love your vinyl. I love vinyl. Vinyl. Vinyl is great. I love it.

SPEAKER_04 40:47

Very satisfying. I love that answer. Oh my god. Um just like living with the work, I think.

SPEAKER_00 40:54

Yeah.

unknown 40:55

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 40:55

Uh good art handlers. Yeah. Underrated for sure. All right. Biggest gallery pet peeve.

SPEAKER_03 41:03

Uh when things are messy. When my desk is messy. It's your fault. It's my fault, but it's a pet peeve. Okay.

SPEAKER_04 41:12

That's I guess that's good because you can fix it.

SPEAKER_03 41:14

Yeah. It's easily solvable, but it is a pet peeve. I'll lock in and be like, Why am I not sad?

SPEAKER_00 41:20

Well, you know, I had this idea that we should have like a cleaning hour every every week. Yeah. I'm cool with that. I like it. We'll put music on, we'll just get into it and like make our desk so clean.

SPEAKER_04 41:34

So here for it. Yeah. Okay. Great. People that like don't take the hint. Just like. Yeah. Yeah. There are so many cases, but people who don't take the hint.

SPEAKER_00 41:44

Right. For me, it's like every high maintenance person walking it at the same time. Art world cliche that you secretly believe in. Hold on. It's gonna come to me.

SPEAKER_04 41:56

I have one.

SPEAKER_00 41:57

Okay.

SPEAKER_04 41:58

I think it is pretty chic. I know, I know it's like messy and there's more going on than like people would imagine, but it is pretty chic at the end of the day.

SPEAKER_00 42:12

One hard world phrase you would ban forever.

SPEAKER_04 42:16

Oh. Very similar to your hot take earlier last round. Um art is not subjective. Okay. To a point. To a point. To a point, but some things. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 42:34

Okay, I would ban the term artist output. What is it? Like, are we talking about a printer here?

SPEAKER_02 42:42

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 42:43

It is so like non-poetic. I hate that. Okay. This is easier, Susie. You should be able to do this. I'm gonna really try hard this time. Okay. Opening nights, a vibe or a battlefield? Battlefield.

SPEAKER_04 42:59

Battlefield.

SPEAKER_00 43:01

Battlefield. Walk-in who wants a full tour or a collector who wants a huge discount. What is worse?

SPEAKER_03 43:09

Oh, a collector who wants a huge discount. Because that's hard to have the conversation of stop talking to me. But the person who wants a full tour doesn't get it.

SPEAKER_00 43:21

Or gets it if you like them. Yeah, I mean I agree with that. I agree with the huge discount. Like, no. Is it ever okay to touch the art? Yes or no? Fast.

SPEAKER_03 43:33

No.

SPEAKER_04 43:34

We do it all the time. What do you mean for others? Oh, for others.

SPEAKER_00 43:41

Can you work in an art gallery and never touch the art? No. No, no, for me. Red dots. Iconic or embarrassing? Embarrassing.

SPEAKER_04 43:52

Really? I like them. Iconic.

SPEAKER_00 43:54

Iconic. Yeah. Okay. Art fairs. Love, tolerate, or hate?

SPEAKER_03 44:01

I love the hold on setup and breakdown. Not a fan of the middle.

SPEAKER_04 44:09

I haven't worked one yet, but I'm gonna say love.

SPEAKER_00 44:12

Oh tolerate, tolerate slash hate, actually. Um best gallery superpower, patience, intuition, or a solid poker face. Solid poker face. Yeah, solid poker face. Intuition. Midnight work texts. Acceptable, forgivable, or a crime?

SPEAKER_03 44:34

Acceptable. As long as they can be ignored until 10 a.m.

SPEAKER_00 44:38

the next day. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 44:39

Agree.

SPEAKER_00 44:40

Yeah, forgivable. Email sign off energy. Best, all best, warmly. Thank you. Or like nothing at all.

SPEAKER_03 44:52

I like warmly because it rhymes with Susie. It really doesn't. It really does not. Oh, never mind.

SPEAKER_02 44:59

You have to why why it would rhyme with Susie? Warmly, Susie.

SPEAKER_03 45:04

No? Doesn't okay. Well, I like, I'm not like dumb on this podcast.

SPEAKER_00 45:08

Um I like it because it's like it's like a little sassy. That that's Susie. Susie. We'll come up with something. Okay. Yeah. You never sign off with warmlane.

SPEAKER_04 45:22

Not to you.

SPEAKER_00 45:25

That's not very nice. Okay, Chloe.

SPEAKER_04 45:28

Um, usually best, sometimes thank you. I'm being gracious.

SPEAKER_00 45:33

You know, I do all best, but I'm liking no sign-off at all. I'm liking that more and more. Just my name. That's very powerful. Goodbye.

SPEAKER_04 45:42

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 45:43

Yeah. Yeah, like thank you sounds kind of aggressive. No?

SPEAKER_02 45:48

Really? I feel like I lost the channel. Oh, I do say thank you.

SPEAKER_00 45:51

Thank you. But yeah. All right, girls, we did it. Thank you again for coming down on your day off to sit on the floor with me. And as a little send-off, we are bringing the hive draw back. But this time the messages in the bag have changed. Yes, there's a bag somewhere, Susie. I know you're looking for it.

SPEAKER_04 46:13

Yeah, I saw it early. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 46:15

You're the custodian of the bag. So these are creative maxims that have kept me company while I created this podcast from scratch. And I want you to take yours into the new year and pretend that it was written just for you. So we will read them out loud like a diva. Okay. I'll try my so get the bag, Chloe. Oh, they have tiny little arms.

SPEAKER_04 46:44

Okay. Should I read first? Yeah. Treat fear and self-doubt like they're worthless peasants. Great. Okay.

SPEAKER_03 47:02

Begin before you feel ready. Readiness is a follower, not a leader. That's so good.

SPEAKER_00 47:13

So I have a bonus one here, so I'll read both. Show up to your desires, let intuition lead, and delusion drive. That's one. Nice.

SPEAKER_01 47:26

I love it.

SPEAKER_00 47:28

And last and most important one, I can't believe I picked it last. You are that bitch. Act accordingly.

SPEAKER_02 47:41

Yes. Get it. Exactly. Thank you. Hell yeah. Thank you for coming.

SPEAKER_04 47:49

Yeah, that was really fun.

SPEAKER_02 47:51

All right. Go team. Yay. Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_00 48:01

If this conversation resonated with you, follow the show wherever you listen and find me on YouTube, Instagram, TikTok, and Substack at RucyHive. If someone came to mind for the hive, send guest suggestions to guests at ruseyhive.com. And if you just want to say hi, it's hello at ruseyhive.com. Original music and sonic identity for the Rusi Hive by Ant Food. Until next time, let your life be a creative act.